VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

Segnbora · Oct 1, 2019

preglovr12 said:
When I say rape I mean Haley coming to the realization she was raped, not the revenge plot that was, as you said, developed in .60.

I was confused about your repeated insistence that Haley was refusing to talk to her brother about Klaus because that wasn't exactly how I remembered it, so I just went back and replayed everything from The Scene onward. And I'd argue that Haley is beginning to understand that there's something wrong. There are four stages to this:

1) Haley promises to tell him more when they're back home, but she also adds "you can ask me anything you want," putting the onus on him. She's not going to volunteer any more information for the reasons she gave the night before ("you'll get mad" and "it's no big deal" and "it's my fault anyway," etc.).

2) At the lake, Haley notices something's wrong with the MC and asks him about it. He straight-up lies to her. Twice. (This, by the way, is the sort of "centering her rape on himself" stuff that he absolutely can't do if he's going to help her.) In the van he lies to her again.

3) At home he tries to bring it up and she again insists that it's no big deal, repeatedly and semi-playfully interrupting him when he persists.

4) After that she pointedly ignores further inquiries, giving him the silent treatment (and looking away as she does it).

Those are four very different responses. She immediately knew the MC was upset, and because she knows him so well and is no dummy she's more than likely connected the dots by now. The difference in her responses indicate that her feelings about the issue are changing. Of course, that isn't the same as seeing things the way the MC does, or that you or I do, but it's still character progress.

preglovr12 said:
Surprised to see you'd be okay with it ending in revenge though, that doesn't really seem like something you'd be for. Unless you didn't mean actually ending and just the climax.

I only mean this subplot. The "A plot" ends with the resolution to the relationship, not with whatever happens w/r/t Klaus and Haley's rape.

preglovr12 said:
I see what you're saying with Victor about Viit not ignoring the plot a little better, but that's still MC's side of things and not Haley. I'd be surprised to hear you say that you'd be okay with Victor talking MC down and not having it be Haley, which would bond them together a little more, but you're right, MC has to get there somehow.

Well, since my argument is that someone has to convince the MC that he's not the central character (ironic, isn't it?) in this subplot before he does something stupid or retraumatizing, that conversation should be on the MC's side of things.

Haley can't talk the MC down at the moment because she doesn't see things his way. (And because she's not talking to him about this at all, of course.) So there are two basic ways this can go. One is that a plan of action focused on helping Haley understand what was done to her comes out of this, and even though there will certainly be some stress on the relationship they eventually get through it and find some sort of resolution. The other is that the MC does something stupid or confrontational anyway, putting extreme stress on the relationship as they'd be on opposite sides of the issue.

The first path is more like the game we've been playing with the sole exception of the Klaus reveal. The second creates more fertile ground for drama, and while I know that choice will be accompanied by another rash of complaints that drama is a thing that exists in fiction, it would be the more narratively interesting way to resolve things.

I don't have a strong preference either way, I just want it to be done well.

preglovr12 said:
Haley said in .55, and I quote: "When we get back, I can tell you more" and the absolute nail in the coffin: "You can ask me anything you want." MC asks, and definitely more than a few times as the time lapse in .60 gives us this: 'But whenever you'd bring up Mr. Klaus, she'd clam up or change the subject.' How exactly is that not putting things on hold?

See above.

The story isn't putting anything on hold. The opposite, in fact; the Klaus issue comes up in one form or another in almost every scene. Haley's trying to put it on hold, but it's not working. That's a conflict, and this time it's between the siblings who've just barely started a sexual relationship that they haven't quite figured out how to navigate (e.g. the Sandra and Jack conversations) and which is in a particularly fragile stage. If it's handled well, conflict is good drama. Also, a conflict between the twins/lovers is more interesting than a conflict between the MC and Klaus because we don't care about Klaus.

Walter Victor · Oct 1, 2019

Can at least most of us agree on one thing - there is more than one way for the MC to take revenge on Klaus! [Preferably with the acquiescence of Haley.] While we would probably like to see the MC kick the crap out of him (and that might be a part of my best revenge scenario), my best ending for this would have Klaus exposed for the predator he is, his reputation destroyed, his job forfeit, and (best case) his sorry ass frog-walked off to prison, where Klaus makes the acquaintance of Big Mike and his merry gang.

Noneless · Oct 1, 2019

I was read the comment section to be up-date in the succes bc my last version was .45

Now Im going to ignore the comment section eterely and Just play the game bc the more I read, the less I understand.

Walter Victor · Oct 1, 2019

Noneless said:
I was read the comment section to be up-date in the succes bc my last version was .45

Now Im going to ignore the comment section eterely and Just play the game bc the more I read, the less I understand.

Probably a good choice. There are two diametrically opposing camps here, each with strongly held positions, and (at least some) persuasive comments. Good luck trying to figure out what's what here. Best to play it and make your own decision.

ptahn · Oct 1, 2019

Walter Victor said:
You are correct, of course.

But there are two sets of people who now hate this game. The largest and most vocal is the set that believes that the developer betrayed them. But there have been those who were turned off of Haley because what happened to her was so shocking (not counting those who just didn't like her breaking the news to her brother right after they had sex). They could accept the boyfriend, but Klaus was a step too far. The fact that Haley has taken the blame for the situation only infuriated them more.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who have rather strange views about women.

While I hate the direction this game has taken, I don't yet hate the game. Your statement is really an over simplification of the people who have issues with story as it is now. Might not the people who think that Klaus was as step too far say that the developers betrayed them by introducing Klaus' abuse of Haley. Betrayed covers a lot of ground. Yes, the developers betrayed us (at least some of us) by introducing the plot element. Yes, they betrayed us by releasing such a poorly written (even if you take the rape out of it) update in August. Yes, they betrayed me (I'll change it to me because I know I don't speak for every one) because after a stressful day I'd see that there was an HS update and it would make me smile. I'd play the update and feel a little better. That is until the August update which just made me feel worse. I've compared HS to When Harry Met Sally. That movie recently celebrated its 30th anniversary and was re-released in some theaters across the U.S. Do you think that would have happened if in the middle of the movie Sally confessed to Harry that she had been raped as a teen? Probably not. Good is good and bad is bad. There seems to be push in the forum right now to take the blame for the downturn in the quality and content in HS and put it in the eye of the beholder. I asked this before and got no replies: can anyone point out one good thing about the August update? I won't go over all the bad things as that has been covered in great detail by me and other posters.

September update: I talked about this earlier, my hope is that the focus of the last update was to find other avenues to obtain the same objectives that milking the Klaus incident was supposed to achieve. Perhaps the developers are trying to reduce the severity and impact of Haley's abuse.

If I had to write the story out of the Klaus situation, I'd have MC go to see Klaus and immediately hit him as hard as possible. Haley would run in out of concern for MC. Klaus would see her, burst into tears, apologize, and tell her how ashamed he as been for all these years. Tell her he had to get therapy just to be able to live with himself. She would walk up to Klaus slap him as hard as she could knocking him to the ground. As she walked out in tears she would turn and say, "I forgive you." Klaus would say, " It doesn't matter because I will never forgive myself." Exit Klaus forever.

apnea111 · Oct 1, 2019

preglovr12 said:
That's what I was trying to say though, thus I agree. When I say rape I mean Haley coming to the realization she was raped, not the revenge plot that was, as you said, developed in .60.

Yeah, your interpretation is correct, though I do literally mean end. Revenge as the climax seems inevitable at this point, hopefully with Haley and not MC. I meant more "the story" in a metaphorical real life sense and not literally this game. Surprised to see you'd be okay with it ending in revenge though, that doesn't really seem like something you'd be for. Unless you didn't mean actually ending and just the climax.

I see what you're saying with Victor about Viit not ignoring the plot a little better, but that's still MC's side of things and not Haley. I'd be surprised to hear you say that you'd be okay with Victor talking MC down and not having it be Haley, which would bond them together a little more, but you're right, MC has to get there somehow.

That said, I'm saying it's being put on hold because it is. Haley said in .55, and I quote: "When we get back, I can tell you more" and the absolute nail in the coffin: "You can ask me anything you want." MC asks, and definitely more than a few times as the time lapse in .60 gives us this: 'But whenever you'd bring up Mr. Klaus, she'd clam up or change the subject.'

How exactly is that not putting things on hold? I realize and agree the wheels are turning so to speak, but .55 hinted at some kind of conversation that would happen in .60, and .60 gave us jack shit.

100% on hold

A. Haleys MC dialoques about the incident

At the lake. No dialoques since MC Is unwilling to Start a conversation. All we get from that scene Is MC Is noticable uncomfortable or even angry. That vibe Is constantly present in 0.60. Haley either neglets it or bypasses it.

At the Van.

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In the naration of the story.
" But whenever you'd bring up Mr Klaus, she'd clamp up or change the subject"

II just dont get it how someone can read between those lines and figure out differencies on haley's responces and that the procedure of her realizing the True nature of the case Is progressing.
While ignoring the obvious. That she totally Backtracked for her previous stance or promise to openly disquss the case.

B. Haleys MC dialoques regarding the daddy references.

After the bike accident
"Daddys taking care of Me" she whispers.
P Isnt that what we said. And Stop calling me that.
END OF DISQUSSION.

First night at home.
"She takes your hand and slides it up her tshirt.
H My Pussy Is yours, daddy. Here... at work.. the post office..
P He he... The post office?
H I am a good girl.
P I Am tired though
END OF DISQUSSION

No comment.

C. Mcs actions towards Mr Klaus or dealing with the case.

Mcs will to confront him Is highlighted As he tries to find him. Leaving aside that in previous update asks his dad about mr Klaus whereabouts, dad Is clueless, and Yet MC knows where to find or to seek him, the confrontation Is Postponed. The story isnt only getting on hold on that part but its getting more bloated or complicated. Additional elements, mr Klaus getting remarried or having a stepdaughter are added to storys frame without getting deeper Into them or to the preexesting ones.

Mc revealing his Sister rape case to Victor and Adriana. Again widthening the story in a problematic way. Dont know how rational Is disqussing your Sisters rape case with a typical buddy or a fuckbuddy. While they have a typical but everydays relationship with her.
The New element here brought to story Is that they are more than buddies or fuckbuddies.
And Yet again its not the cause that justified the outcome. Mcs relationship with them wasnt presented so close or deep enough in order to make sense revealing the rape case.
Its the outcome that justifies the cause.
Since the outcome Is revealing them the rape case its justified the nature of their relationship being more than buddies or fuckbuddies.
Just poor story writing.

Having the second main fc being raped or abused in the past. Leaving aside the plausibility of Everyone you have a romantic relationship being raped (or 40% of every female in story) or the logic to use As a device of progressing a rape case the introduction of a New one, again adding New elements in the story without looking deeper Into them or the preexesting ones.

So 100% zero progres in every issue pending. Without avoiding to add additional elements in the story while retaining everything in a surface level.

If they gain 30 patrons (which Is pausible since rest of ptolemys games are declining, are on hold or in a very early stage) this month, they are gonna rape another.

Cause the more you rape them the more character depth.
The nature of the game has changed, the nature of the fanbase Is changing accordinglly, the nature of opinions in the thread Is changing.

Between constant insults or questioning "why you play it when dont like it", "why you are stickings around", "why you dont make a game on your own", "what if a loved one of yours was raped in rl, then what would you do bs.. bs.. bs.. you arrogant critisizing...." its still refresing to find real arguements regarding the Games progression.

While i strongly disagree about storys progression while it keeps overbloating while not dealing with anything or characters depth while characters are constantly twisted or the dialoques about the pending issues have become autistic.

Walter Victor · Oct 1, 2019

ptahn said:
While I hate the direction this game has taken, I don't yet hate the game. Your statement is really an over simplification of the people who have issues with story as it is now. Might not the people who think that Klaus was as step too far say that the developers betrayed them by introducing Klaus' abuse of Haley. Betrayed covers a lot of ground. Yes, the developers betrayed us (at least some of us) by introducing the plot element. Yes, they betrayed us by releasing such a poorly written (even if you take the rape out of it) update in August. Yes, they betrayed me (I'll change it to me because I know I don't speak for every one) because after a stressful day I'd see that there was an HS update and it would make me smile. I'd play the update and feel a little better. That is until the August update which just made me feel worse. I've compared HS to When Harry Met Sally. That movie recently celebrated its 30th anniversary and was re-released in some theaters across the U.S. Do you think that would have happened if in the middle of the movie Sally confessed to Harry that she had been raped as a teen? Probably not. Good is good and bad is bad. There seems to be push in the forum right now to take the blame for the downturn in the quality and content in HS and put it in the eye of the beholder. I asked this before and got no replies: can anyone point out one good thing about the August update? I won't go over all the bad things as that has been covered in great detail by me and other posters.

September update: I talked about this earlier, my hope is that the focus of the last update was to find other avenues to obtain the same objectives that milking the Klaus incident was supposed to achieve. Perhaps the developers are trying to reduce the severity and impact of Haley's abuse.

If I had to write the story out of the Klaus situation, I'd have MC go to see Klaus and immediately hit him as hard as possible. Haley would run in out of concern for MC. Klaus would see her, burst into tears, apologize, and tell her how ashamed he as been for all these years. Tell her he had to get therapy just to be able to live with himself. She would walk up to Klaus slap him as hard as she could knocking him to the ground. As she walked out in tears she would turn and say, "I forgive you." Klaus would say, " It doesn't matter because I will never forgive myself." Exit Klaus forever.

Yes, I oversimplified my response. But I was not about to attempt to analyze every poster's degree of like or dislike for the game. Thank you for explaining your position. I don't agree very much with your conclusions, but... so what?

apnea111 · Oct 1, 2019

ptahn said:
While I hate the direction this game has taken, I don't yet hate the game. Your statement is really an over simplification of the people who have issues with story as it is now. Might not the people who think that Klaus was as step too far say that the developers betrayed them by introducing Klaus' abuse of Haley. Betrayed covers a lot of ground. Yes, the developers betrayed us (at least some of us) by introducing the plot element. Yes, they betrayed us by releasing such a poorly written (even if you take the rape out of it) update in August. Yes, they betrayed me (I'll change it to me because I know I don't speak for every one) because after a stressful day I'd see that there was an HS update and it would make me smile. I'd play the update and feel a little better. That is until the August update which just made me feel worse. I've compared HS to When Harry Met Sally. That movie recently celebrated its 30th anniversary and was re-released in some theaters across the U.S. Do you think that would have happened if in the middle of the movie Sally confessed to Harry that she had been raped as a teen? Probably not. Good is good and bad is bad. There seems to be push in the forum right now to take the blame for the downturn in the quality and content in HS and put it in the eye of the beholder. I asked this before and got no replies: can anyone point out one good thing about the August update? I won't go over all the bad things as that has been covered in great detail by me and other posters.

September update: I talked about this earlier, my hope is that the focus of the last update was to find other avenues to obtain the same objectives that milking the Klaus incident was supposed to achieve. Perhaps the developers are trying to reduce the severity and impact of Haley's abuse.

If I had to write the story out of the Klaus situation, I'd have MC go to see Klaus and immediately hit him as hard as possible. Haley would run in out of concern for MC. Klaus would see her, burst into tears, apologize, and tell her how ashamed he as been for all these years. Tell her he had to get therapy just to be able to live with himself. She would walk up to Klaus slap him as hard as she could knocking him to the ground. As she walked out in tears she would turn and say, "I forgive you." Klaus would say, " It doesn't matter because I will never forgive myself." Exit Klaus forever.

Agree on first part.
Strongly disagree on second one.

Dev Already have presented Haleys rape case in the most misogynistic way. Presenting a rape case smoothened or debatable (or even pleasurable) mainly through Haleys reactions and understanding of the case.

If you go back to the posts after 0.55 released, you can see all the debate and arguements about the nature of the case or the legal/ethic status of it.
You can also see comments like "people are buthurt cause she wasnt a virgin", or "people are buthurt cause she had a sex life in the past" or "i can say from my personal experience that 15 old Kids can seduce an old fart cause my cousin... bs... bs... bs...". Most of them dissapeared from disqussion or inlined their opinions after "getting the memo" that Dev are going to deal with this case As a statutory rape one.

And Yet we who didnt like the content or treated the case As a rape one from Start are the ones being lectured for our sensitivity towards rape victims while the former "my 15years old cousin tried to seduce me... bs.. bs... bs..." posters upvote the sensitivity lecturing posts!!!
Pure comedy gold.

So because Everyone Is lecturing about sensitivity or proposing a reasonable manner to treat the case, I will give you my thoughts.

1. Reporting the case to the authorities Is the only reasonable way to go in such cases

Rape victims are often not willing to go that way, fearing of being retraumatized or social exposure. Yet its the only way to go in order to apply justice or to protect future potential victims. And in long term Is the only way that gives a satisfactory resolution to the problem in both terms of justice or victims treatment. A 3rd person should always report this to the authorities regardless of the victims perspective.
(Dev in our case have Already shown MC exposing his Sisters rape case to their common everyday closed social circle regardless her persective)

2. Victims should seek or persuaded to seek experts treatment.

Again authorities have all the means and experience to support victims. Either victims are persuaded to testify and pursue the case legally or not its the only way to go.
Its a standard that victims are forced to relive the incident and are retraumatized. But its the way modern psycologys rules are applied in such cases.
(Devs have Already shown MC applying selfmade out of his buthole psycology with the "you are seeing it wrong" treatment, when not staying silent either on troubled or angry Mode. Or the being autistic during disqussions treatment, where disqussions always lead to nowhere)

3. Talking the law in your hands Is not a reasonable action in civilized societies.

Its the way modern civilized societies work. Doing otherwise leaves emotional marks. The eye for an eye rule isnt applied. You dont rape back rapist or kill murderers equalling yourself to them. And making your life and the ones around you more miserable. (devs have Already set the frame story, with the revelation of Mr Klaus being remarried and having a stepdaughter, that MC Is going to keep on investagating the case or dealing with it on his own)

4. There are far more important things in life than your bonner.

A rape case of a loved one Is more important than the short term or even the longterm consequnses it can have on yours relationship. If in order to deal in a satisfactory way with it, you have to directy adress the issue risking a direct confrontation, a fight, or even a brake up you do so. Even more if it Already affects your relationship in a level that its making it disfunctional, and there Is a constant presence of the elephant in the room.
(Dev atm apply the keep fucking her resolution. In order to keep fappers happy and dont Deny fanbase its bonners after all the build up in siblings relationship from Start through 0.55. So we have the Dick treatment applied to haley while haley keeps adressing MC the way he thinks was adressing her rapist. Far more twisted than pure ntr content.
Ntr or cheating Is a common thing in rl, but not one of the best attributes of human nature. Fucking a rape victim while she adresses you the way she adressed her rapist its reaching levels of disturbing or uncommon behavior such As vore or necrophilia)

That my opinion of how a rape case must be dealt. Thats the way to go if dev decides to treat a rape case with the sensitivity Is requires. In a story that makes sense. Or even leaves Some rl Lessons of how to deal with such cases.

Dont see it coming. Game has Already taken the opposite direction from sensitivity or common sense.

lorddarkam · Oct 1, 2019

People Here : the games are all the same

Different Game Shows up

People Be Like : Where is my game ?

I think you all are being trolled and Haley is the real protagonist of this game you all will get to know what make she be who she is

Also Dev is Human not a Doctor to Treat mental damaged people you guys expect so much from a guy who is making this at home, and buy games AAA for 100$ that are Laggy

Just Remember theres NTR GAMES HERE CAN SOMETHING BE REASONED IN A PLECE WHERE MAJORITY PEOPLE PLAY NTR GAMES ?

Whatever you guys play games where you let people rape for fun

goobdoob · Oct 1, 2019

apnea111 said:
Well i live in Europe.
When i say football i mean the actual one thats played with feet.
Cant understand wtf Is american "football"

Pfft. If you want to call the game football, then have your women win the World Cup. The US women won the World Cup, so it's soccer. At least until someone besides the US (

) wins the men's World Cup.

apnea111 · Oct 1, 2019

goobdoob said:
Pfft. If you want to call the game football, then have your women win the World Cup. The US women won the World Cup, so it's soccer. At least until someone besides the US ( ) wins the men's World Cup.

Well i dont watch women football or "soccer" (ffs when i hear or read soccer my mind Goes to subuteo or sensible soccer).
Cant watch sports with a bonner...

goobdoob · Oct 1, 2019

apnea111 said:
Well i dont watch women football or "soccer" (ffs when i hear or read soccer my mind Goes to subuteo or sensible soccer).
Cant watch sports with a bonner...

Au contraire mon frere, you certainly can!

Especially women's beach volleyball

The Archduke · Oct 1, 2019

I guess most people would now agree, that the rape dynamic wasn't necessarily a good choice. I would have prefered to keep the ligh-hearted touch and not dive into such deep phenomena.

Segnbora · Oct 2, 2019

The Archduke said:
I guess most people would now agree, that the rape dynamic wasn't necessarily a good choice. I would have prefered to keep the ligh-hearted touch and not dive into such deep phenomena.

On this particular forum that's debatably true, but it doesn't appear to be true for the wider community of fans (and definitely not for Patrons). It wouldn't have been my choice, no — if it was destined from the beginning I'd have started to introduce more ominous elements earlier in the story — but the difference between some respondents (not those who just want to rant incoherently and fling unsupported accusations around) is that I'm neither insistent nor impatient for resolution. There's a point at which I'll know whether or not it was worth it; a personal judgement, of course, but what other kind is there? I could very well end up hating this story and feeling regret over its lost potential. That it's not the story it seemed at the beginning, though, is one of the least relevant reasons. For me.

It's not like the game is entirely free of potentially troubling elements. Haley did treat Jack shabbily, long before hooking up with her brother. The MC is capable of acting even worse, though that's up to the player. The Adriana/MC relationship, if triggered, really isn't okay on multiple levels. Something is deeply broken between Haley and her mother (and also somewhat broken between the MC and his mother), and whether that's Klaus-related or not there's clearly a backstory that was always meant to be explored; after all, Haley's been complaining about their differing relationships with their mother from the very beginning. And now there's a darker story involving Victor in some fashion, about which Sandra and Adriana apparently know.

Is piling the majority of those story beats into two releases unwise pacing? Yes, in my opinion it is, but a lot of that opinion rests on knowing just how much story we have left, which only one person posting here (and he rarely does) could possibly know. There's a large number of players (and here I mean of all games) who seem to believe that once the MC and the principal Designated Lust Object have had sex for the first time, the story is obviously and categorically complete. (Go, for instance, read through the Triangle thread. Or the Life With Mary thread, though in that case I think the argument was correct for lack of a well-considered endgame.) I've never agreed with that and consider it a tragic failure of imagination. Here, I think it's too early to tell.

If this isn't a story about two siblings figuring out how to have a romantic and sexual relationship in a society that disapproves of such relationships, but is instead a story about redeeming a troubled and damaged young woman that's managed to quip her way through life without revealing that damage (and there's no reason it can't be both), then my opinion of the pacing might very well change. I wonder what we'd call that story...

preglovr12 · Oct 2, 2019

Segnbora said:
I was confused about your repeated insistence that Haley was refusing to talk to her brother about Klaus because that wasn't exactly how I remembered it, so I just went back and replayed everything from The Scene onward. And I'd argue that Haley is beginning to understand that there's something wrong. There are four stages to this:

Alright, fair enough interpretation of the facts given. My question is what spawns this? Did she have a conversation with Mom while MC was sleeping? Was Dad also sleeping? How'd we go from a confident and fine to talk about it Haley to one questioning it in a matter of a few hours? I also don't think Haley would know for certain that MC's thinking about Klaus at the lake. MC's already fairly easily pissed, so he really could be mad at anything, like having to break up with Sandra. MC is too dumb to be considering this, but I know I wouldn't want to get into any kind of discussion when I'm angry, so that's a valid reason for him to be lying. He could also be lying at the lake because they aren't home yet. Haley, on the other hand, completely shuts MC down in the van dismissing him as "sounding like mom" and then pretending to fall asleep. Sure, MC sin't pushing as hard as he could, but he's not the one that was raped and probably wants to handle things with kid gloves to a degree.

I'd hate to bring up yet another nerdy sci-fi franchise but a large complaint about the second season of Star Trek Discovery is its (mis)use of cliffhangers. With so many show runners dropping in and out, it almost felt like they had to develop the season as it was being filmed, so they wrote the ending cliffhanger for an episode, and then wrote the episode afterwards on how they got there. Then, and here's the real problem, they completely brush off the cliffhanger in the following episode with one or two lines of dialogue. This feels like the same sort of thing. Viit is trying to bail himself out of his own mistakes, or Ptolemy got a hold and we're stuck between two warring writers. I just don't see this ending well with shit like this already happening.

Segnbora · Oct 2, 2019

preglovr12 said:
How'd we go from a confident and fine to talk about it Haley to one questioning it in a matter of a few hours?

(ObDisclaimer: I'm not the writer.) We make that transition because Haley, who we've just been shown has been living with an idealized mental image of her brother for a decade or more and loses her "incestuous virginity" to him in a scene where it's not even clear he needs to be in the room, is now encountering an actual, real-life brother who's apparently acting in a way that she half-expected but wasn't actually prepared to face. A brother who is, apparently, reminding her of the most difficult and confrontational relationship in her life (that we know of): that with her mother. As one of a number of possible reactions to this divergence hers hardly seems unreasonable. Which is, of course, not the same thing as calling it healthy or admirable.

preglovr12 said:
I also don't think Haley would know for certain that MC's thinking about Klaus at the lake.

I don't think she does then, either. I think she's likely to either know or at least strongly suspect by the time she starts shutting him down. If she has, in fact, heard this line of interrogation before — from her Mom, as her responses indicate — and if Klaus was the subject [* see below] back then, she'll know what this portends and how it ends. She's trying to avoid the conversation because she knows it doesn't end well for her, and that's an outcome she can't bear when it comes to the brother with whom she finally achieved her dream.

And look: aside from the Klaus conversation she's lighthearted and happy. She's wearing the "I'm happy" dress to work and she's cuddling over crosswords at home. She's eagerly initiating sex. (We've yet to see ball gags, but I'm sure she's thinking about them.) She's gotten the only thing she's truly wanted since she was a girl. She absolutely does not want to darken that nirvana, and she's not going to let RealBrother (as opposed to DreamBrother) do it either.

* What if she and her mother have argued about "Klaus" but not Klaus? Perhaps her mother knows she had a potentially inappropriate sexual relationship (and if she was 15 it's hardly unheard to have sex, but it's at least worthy of careful parental inquiry) and Haley absolutely refused to tell her the truth, no matter what enticements or threats her mother made? That would, I suspect, cause her mother to stop trusting Haley. It would explain everything about her subsequent reactions and their ongoing relationship. I'm not saying this is how it went. Obviously we don't yet know. But it's logical.

preglovr12 said:
I'd hate to bring up yet another nerdy sci-fi franchise but a large complaint about the second season of Star Trek Discovery is its (mis)use of cliffhangers.

I haven't seen Discovery, but somewhere back in the grotty archives of the internet — Usenet, specifically — there are zillions upon zillions of pages of me (under my real name, of course) complaining about Star Trek's inability to understand cliffhangers, their use, and their misuse. This is going back to the initial runs of TNG, DS9, and so forth. So you won't hear any argument from me on this subject.

preglovr12 said:
Viit is trying to bail himself out of his own mistakes, or Ptolemy got a hold and we're stuck between two warring writers.

I'm still not clear on whether this is plot by one, dialogue by another; a cowritten project; a solo project; or something else. Pages and pages of baseless allegations (not from you, by the way) mean nothing to me. But would it change your mind if this was in the original outline from the beginning and was always meant to be part of a greater and much more complex story? Or is the tonal shift, no matter what follows, fatally debilitating in your mind?

preglovr12 · Oct 2, 2019

Segnbora said:
(ObDisclaimer: I'm not the writer.) We make that transition because Haley, who we've just been shown has been living with an idealized mental image of her brother for a decade or more and loses her "incestuous virginity" to him in a scene where it's not even clear he needs to be in the room, is now encountering an actual, real-life brother who's apparently acting in a way that she half-expected but wasn't actually prepared to face. A brother who is, apparently, reminding her of the most difficult and confrontational relationship in her life (that we know of): that with her mother. As one of a number of possible reactions to this divergence hers hardly seems unreasonable. Which is, of course, not the same thing as calling it healthy or admirable.

Having just literally replayed the relevant parts, Haley's back is to MC when she tells him, and unless she heard his teeth clinch, nothing changes on her end before she tells MC she didn't tell him to make him angry. She already knows he's a hothead. They were never apart for more than a few days before Haley's trip with Adriana so we have to assume they have very intimate knowledge of each other, that even the players don't know. She then seemingly tells him they'll talk later and he can ask anything he wants, almost in a response to his anger that might be shown on his face or to cover her own ass. It's clear that she opens the door though for more talk.

In the van, MC lies about "James," then Haley falls asleep for a bit. Then the conversation happens. MC says almost nothing and Haley is slamming the door in his face him for sounding like mom. I'm sure a whole world of possibilities can explain the difference, but the real question should be why does it need to be explained? Why are we seeing what seems to be such a disjointed story? I'm not saying that it is, it's entirely possible that Viit's trying to show Haley as some kind of psychopath and that'd be perfectly fine so long as we got some hint at it through MC's thoughts which need to be conveyed in order to be understood in these games. As you've said, the MC is his own character with thoughts and motivations.

I haven't seen Discovery, but somewhere back in the grotty archives of the internet — Usenet, specifically — there are zillions upon zillions of pages of me (under my real name, of course) complaining about Star Trek's inability to understand cliffhangers, their use, and their misuse. This is going back to the initial runs of TNG, DS9, and so forth. So you won't hear any argument from me on this subject.

Probably for the best that you don't watch it then, as a heads up.

I'm still not clear on whether this is plot by one, dialogue by another; a cowritten project; a solo project; or something else. Pages and pages of pointless allegations (not from you, by the way) mean nothing to me. But would it change your mind if this was in the original outline from the beginning and was always meant to be part of a greater and much more complex story? Or is the tonal shift, no matter what follows, fatally debilitating in your mind?

That's why I kept using "they" until you called me out for it, but I wish we did know so I could throwing Viit under the bus if he doesn't deserve it.

As a game I play and enjoy the massive tonal shift killed it for me.* As a possible episode of Law and Order: SVU, the apparent near lack of consistency and cohesiveness kills it for me. This doesn't feel like an outline being put to practice, this feels like a new episode each month with little to no regard for the last one. Even WAY back, Diane meets Sandra and then completely forgets about her to meet her again. While this was easily dismissed at the time as a simple mistake, now I'm beginning to wonder if it's the first evidence of a real issue. None of this seems well written though.

* Most of the shift came from the fact that it was rape itself and not just some issue that the twins now have to face because they're now fucking. I fully expected some kind of drama because that's usually what happens to provide a continuing story once the main characters have fucked.

Segnbora · Oct 2, 2019

preglovr12 said:
She then seemingly tells him they'll talk later and he can ask anything he wants, almost in a response to his anger that might be shown on his face or to cover her own ass. It's clear that she opens the door though for more talk.

I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about. Haley doesn't want to talk about it. That's obvious despite her two offers to do so. If this is based on an experience with her mother back when it happened, I'd certainly understand why she doesn't.

preglovr12 said:
I'm sure a whole world of possibilities can explain the difference, but the real question should be why does it need to be explained? Why are we seeing what seems to be such a disjointed story?

So let me try an example.

You have, one presumes, seen the original Star Wars trilogy. If you haven't, at least you've gathered enough from the cultural narrative to know the story. You would also, I think, agree that it's a reasonably* popular and successful story, no matter how you feel about the murderous Teddy Bears. I'm not going to spoiler-protect it for anyone, because c'mon.

* I can hardly be more sarcastic, though I'd welcome the opportunity.

From the opening scene of A New Hope to the moment when Darth Vader slices off Luke's hand, what is the trilogy about? (Yes, I know that's only 1 7/8th movies, but that's the point.) It's about the Rebels defeating the Empire. How's that going to be achieved? In terms of the trilogy, it's clearly going to be achieved by still-untutored Luke learning about the Force so he can kill the thoroughly evil master of said Force, Darth Vader, in a super-awesome lightsaber battle. It couldn't possibly assure you more often that this is exactly how the story's going to conclude. The second film helpfully demonstrates this by giving you the classic "unready hero" scene in which they have a lightsaber battle and Luke is soundly defeated by the dude in the noisy mask.

And then: dramatic plot twist. Since the plot twist immediately reveals that our hero has romantically pursued and kissed his own sister, that his trustworthy mentors straight-up lied to him (*cough* from a certain point of view *cough*), and that his dad tortured his own daughter, I'd call that even more disruptive to the existing narrative than Haley having been a victim of statutory rape.

What's the trilogy about after that? The A plot's still about defeating the Empire. But the story is now about something theretofore incomprehensible: redeeming the evil torturer/murderer/let's not forget he cut off Luke's hand just to punctuate a sentence/dude with the breathing problem.

Go back to someone who just watched Luke (among very few others) barely escape Vader in Death Star Mark 1's trench (don't @ me, extended universe fans) and ask them, "oh, by the way, Luke's going to defy all his friends to save this jackass. How do you feel about that?"

We can handle dramatic tonal shifts in fiction. We handle them less well when we can't see the bigger picture. Praise be that there wasn't much of an internet back when Absentee Daddy told Luke the truth, because I think you know what that reaction would've been. And yet nearly everyone thinks it's the best film of the trilogy, and usually the whole series.

preglovr12 said:
it's entirely possible that Viit's trying to show Haley as some kind of psychopath

This is more or less the heart of my objection to what you're writing (and if I didn't think it was worth responding to I wouldn't). Haley isn't a psychopath by her own malevolent design, she's damaged. Whether she initiated it or Klaus did, she's got a whole constellation of issues built up around the incident(s). They're not her fault. She can't help but respond to the MC this way. Is her entire history with the MC bound up with this damage? That's an exceedingly crucial question and we need to find out. Did she have opportunities for remedy? Certainly, but we can't and shouldn't blame the victim.

I repeat what I wrote a few posts up: this game may not be about fucking Haley. This game may be about fixing Haley.

preglovr12 said:
Even WAY back, Diane meets Sandra and then completely forgets about her to meet her again.

It may well have been a mistake and it probably was. Still, does it seem out of character for Diane? Does she seem like a character who builds strong and memorable personal relationships?

preglovr12 said:
and not just some issue that the twins now have to face because they're now fucking. I fully expected some kind of drama because that's usually what happens to provide a continuing story once the main characters have fucked.

So this is, for me, sort of the core question from here on. What's the story actually about? If it's not about getting the twins together, but instead about something much more complex and entirely Haley-focused (no matter how much of the resolution requires the MC), then where the story went wrong wasn't two updates ago, it was all the earlier releases. But even if that's true, if enough comes after this to justify the shift as a complete story, then I'll be okay with it. Affection or lack thereof will be a different judgement.

preglovr12 · Oct 2, 2019

Segnbora said:
I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about. Haley doesn't want to talk about it. That's obvious despite her two offers to do so. If this is based on an experience with her mother back when it happened, I'd certainly understand why she doesn't.

I'm not sure I'd say it's obvious when she offers to talk at home. She seems to be grinning, which might be because she just fucked her brother and whatnot (those timing issues have been discussed to death.) I think the least she could do* is answer the first question MC asks about why he'd be mad, not doing so seems like a massive shift in her stance for no reason (that's been explained.) Unless she told the same thing to the mom when she told her, but Haley seems smart enough to not want to repeat the same mistake twice (unless that's the whole point). It's a strange thing to offer to talk if she's not willing to do so. It's not like MC is demanding answers right then and she's just trying to throw him a halfhearted bone in the spur of the moment.

*No, anyone else that's reading this, I'm not demanding the game do something I want. I just would like the game to do something it set up all by itself with absolutely no help from me.

We can handle dramatic tonal shifts in fiction. We handle them less well when we can't see the bigger picture. Praise be that there wasn't much of an internet back when Absentee Daddy told Luke the truth, because I think you know what that reaction would've been like. And yet nearly everyone thinks it's the best film of the trilogy, and usually the whole series.

No disagreements but every update that comes out I'm questioning whether or not there's a bigger plan for this game more and more. I know a lot of my "problems" could easily be dismissed as nitpicks but they also might be clear evidence of much bigger issues. I also know we won't know until later.

This is more or less the heart of my objection to what you're writing (and if I didn't think it was worth responding to I wouldn't). Haley isn't a psychopath by her own malevolent design, she's damaged. Whether she initiated it or Klaus did, she's got a whole constellation of issues built up around the incident(s). They're not her fault. She can't help but respond to the MC this way. Is her entire history with the MC bound up with this damage? That's an exceedingly crucial question and we need to find out. Did she have opportunities for remedy? Certainly, but we can't and shouldn't blame the victim.

I repeat what I wrote a few posts up: this game may not be about fucking Haley. This game may be about fixing Haley.

For sure. I wasn't trying to dismiss her reasoning, just question her portrayal as someone that's okay and offering to talk and no later than a few hours later completely dismissive of any conversation and not wanting to talk no matter the circumstances (taking into account the time lapse). Her actions make sense, but it could have been handled a lot better if we're supposed to feel sorry for her.

At the end of the day we don't know who to blame the faults on. Be it Viit, Ptolemy, or Haley (and thus ultimately Klaus, obviously.) It could be all of them as well. I just wish the audience was more in on what's happening. It certainly could be a very well thought out ploy for the audience to be driven to despair right alongside MC but then again I'm not sure that's a ride I'm willing to take. MC also seems to be too much of his own character for that to work very well.

ptahn · Oct 2, 2019

apnea111 said:
Agree on first part.
Strongly disagree on second one.

Dev Already have presented Haleys rape case in the most misogynistic way. Presenting a rape case smoothened or debatable (or even pleasurable) mainly through Haleys reactions and understanding of the case.

If you go back to the posts after 0.55 released, you can see all the debate and arguements about the nature of the case or the legal/ethic status of it.
You can also see comments like "people are buthurt cause she wasnt a virgin", or "people are buthurt cause she had a sex life in the past" or "i can say from my personal experience that 15 old Kids can seduce an old fart cause my cousin... bs... bs... bs...". Most of them dissapeared from disqussion or inlined their opinions after "getting the memo" that Dev are going to deal with this case As a statutory rape one.

And Yet we who didnt like the content or treated the case As a rape one from Start are the ones being lectured for our sensitivity towards rape victims while the former "my 15years old cousin tried to seduce me... bs.. bs... bs..." posters upvote the sensitivity lecturing posts!!!
Pure comedy gold.

So because Everyone Is lecturing about sensitivity or proposing a reasonable manner to treat the case, I will give you my thoughts.

1. Reporting the case to the authorities Is the only reasonable way to go in such cases

Rape victims are often not willing to go that way, fearing of being retraumatized or social exposure. Yet its the only way to go in order to apply justice or to protect future potential victims. And in long term Is the only way that gives a satisfactory resolution to the problem in both terms of justice or victims treatment. A 3rd person should always report this to the authorities regardless of the victims perspective.
(Dev in our case have Already shown MC exposing his Sisters rape case to their common everyday closed social circle regardless her persective)

2. Victims should seek or persuaded to seek experts treatment.

Again authorities have all the means and experience to support victims. Either victims are persuaded to testify and pursue the case legally or not its the only way to go.
Its a standard that victims are forced to relive the incident and are retraumatized. But its the way modern psycologys rules are applied in such cases.
(Devs have Already shown MC applying selfmade out of his buthole psycology with the "you are seeing it wrong" treatment, when not staying silent either on troubled or angry Mode. Or the being autistic during disqussions treatment, where disqussions always lead to nowhere)

3. Talking the law in your hands Is not a reasonable action in civilized societies.

Its the way modern civilized societies work. Doing otherwise leaves emotional marks. The eye for an eye rule isnt applied. You dont rape back rapist or kill murderers equalling yourself to them. And making your life and the ones around you more miserable. (devs have Already set the frame story, with the revelation of Mr Klaus being remarried and having a stepdaughter, that MC Is going to keep on investagating the case or dealing with it on his own)

4. There are far more important things in life than your bonner.

A rape case of a loved one Is more important than the short term or even the longterm consequnses it can have on yours relationship. If in order to deal in a satisfactory way with it, you have to directy adress the issue risking a direct confrontation, a fight, or even a brake up you do so. Even more if it Already affects your relationship in a level that its making it disfunctional, and there Is a constant presence of the elephant in the room.
(Dev atm apply the keep fucking her resolution. In order to keep fappers happy and dont Deny fanbase its bonners after all the build up in siblings relationship from Start through 0.55. So we have the Dick treatment applied to haley while haley keeps adressing MC the way he thinks was adressing her rapist. Far more twisted than pure ntr content.
Ntr or cheating Is a common thing in rl, but not one of the best attributes of human nature. Fucking a rape victim while she adresses you the way she adressed her rapist its reaching levels of disturbing or uncommon behavior such As vore or necrophilia)

That my opinion of how a rape case must be dealt. Thats the way to go if dev decides to treat a rape case with the sensitivity Is requires. In a story that makes sense. Or even leaves Some rl Lessons of how to deal with such cases.

Dont see it coming. Game has Already taken the opposite direction from sensitivity or common sense.

My desire is to have the story return to its roots as soon as possible. I would like to avoid update after update trying to put Klaus in jail. I want Haley's rape to be a one time event and not long term abuse. For me, it would be worse if Klaus manipulated her for a long period of time in order to have sex with her. It would be worse if later he did the same thing with other girls. How would Haley feel if because she did not stop Klaus when it happened to her, Klaus was allowed to hurt other girls? But you're right, there will be those that will never be satisfied if Klaus is not punished in some dramatic way. A life time of self loathing will not be enough. How about MC discovers Klaus has testicular cancer and the cancer has spread throughout his body? Klaus will be dead in a matter of months, suffering every day of the time he has left. Divine justice for those who believe in such a thing. I really don't want update after update of Haley dealing with the trauma of what happened to her. What I am trying to suggest is a path that minimizes her emotional scars. I want her to heal as fast as possible. I want my romantic comedy back. The worse the details of the Klaus incident and the longer the resolution drags out, the less likely it will ever come back. As for my "boner," I have said repeatedly that I don't care if every sex scene in the story is removed; it has never been about that for me.

VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

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